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Supreme Being
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Dear All, As a follow up to the post on Friday regarding changes to the formula of Tony Ferguson sachets, we have tried to again answer the questions raised throughout a number of posts over the past week. Again it needs to be pointed out that detailed information about our products and formulas is often sensitive commercial information. If at times we are unable to answer questions in as much detail as some forum users wish, it is not to deliberately keep information hidden, only to protect our business.
Protein; as previously posted, the change to the quantity of protein in the shakes has been made based on recommendations by our nutritional team. This change results from research into the roles of various proteins in weight loss.
Carbohydrate; as a result of the change in protein, the amount of carbohydrate in the formula needed to be increased to maintain the sachets energy content (which is required to be at least 850 kj). Importantly the change in protein and carbohydrate has resulted in no change to the energy content of the sachet and will not affect your ability to lose weight using the product. Our nutritional team has pointed out that natural variation in your diet through your daily choices of fruit, vegetable and protein containing foods while on the Tony Ferguson Program will result in larger changes in protein and carbohydrate levels.
Maltodextrin; there has been a very small change in the amount of Maltodextrin as a result of the small increase in carbohydrate in the sachet. Again the impact of this change is far smaller then potential variation in your diet while on the program. Sodium and Vitamins; as previously posted, these nutrients can vary based on the original milk product supplied. This information is updated each time a new label is prepared to reflect the latest information provided by our milk product supplier.
Flavour/Texture; when making a product such as this, there will always be very minor variations in flavour and texture from one batch to another. The changes made to the formula will not cause any greater change than would normally be expected.
Allergies; because there has been no new ingredients added to the formula, only small variations in ratios of current ingredients, there is no reason for customers to now suffer allergic reactions who were previously allergy free.
Communication; due to the minor nature of these changes, as a company we decided that it was unnecessary to make widespread announcements about the change. Clearly for a small number of customers this has caused some confusion and concern. This was certainly not our intention.
Finally a suggestion was made by one post that these changes were designed to lengthen the amount of time customers took to achieve their goal weight. This is categorically not the case. The success of our company is completely based on the success of our customers. To deliberately delay or risk the weight loss of our customers completely undermines the principles of Tony Ferguson and the ultimate success of Tony Ferguson Weightloss. We hope that this will allow each of you using Tony Ferguson to continue your weight loss journey with confidence.
Kind regards,WoodyB Tony Ferguson Staff 
 Thanks Mally
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: Wednesday, 17 December 2008 8:44 AM
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I have just read the new announcement (http://forum.tonyferguson.com/Topic371646-15-1.aspx) regarding the shake change and will update this post soon...
OK. I am possibly more outraged than any other person about this issue because i feel like i have been treated like a complete idiot. You barely answered anything that i was asking and i believe the two excuses you used are complete BS! Therefore, i have created another post in regards to the Shake change issue. Now i know you have millions of $$$ so you could pay off any nutritionist or laywer and completely bury this issue but i am hoping you can answer the questions i have so this issue can be sorted out. I know you are entitled to change your product (both the nutritional content and the ingredients) and/or increase your profits but doing so without telling your consumers and providing us with BS excuses as to why you have done it?? Thats not on in my books.
I am not blaming the online TF staff for the unsatisfactory response. I understand that you can only give us the information you have provided. Therefore, the following post is aimed at those people who provided you with what i believe is such a BS response. I also cant get the bold to work properly so when i use CAPITALS, it is normally to highlight something rather than shouting, except when using initials like TF.
For all to see, here are the nutritional changes that i have so far....
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?93701b6010.jpg
And here are the vitamins and minerals changes i have so far...
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?272daff1b5.jpg
I originally raised the change in shakes issue via my original post in the "Ask TF Staff" section on Saturday 3/5 (found here: http://forum.tonyferguson.com/Topic367479-8-1.aspx) and also provided a thread for us to discuss the issue (found here: http://forum.tonyferguson.com/Topic367480-2-1.aspx). Chances are that my post was not passed on to the correct people until Monday and yet it took until Friday for your "nutritionists and formulation team" to provide you with an official response. And after such a delay, what an unsatisfactory response:
"Dear All,
Apologies for the delay in responding, it can be difficult at times to respond to detailed questions about our products and formulas, especially when confidential information is often involved. We do value the feedback and questions from all of our customers, but at times we also need to consider the commercial implications as well.
With this in mind, we have tried to provide some information in answer to the questions posed in recent days regarding the formulation of our shakes, I hope the following will clear up any confusion.
As posted, the amount of protein has been varied slightly in each shake as a result of advice we have received from our nutritional advisory team based on new research into the use of protein in weight loss. The aim of this small change is to improve satiety, while minimizing energy input. The changes noted in vitamin and sodium levels can occur from time to time because our shakes are based on naturally occurring milk product. As with any milk based product, exact ratios of nutrients can vary slightly over time. When we update labels with new information, we will at that time also update all ingredients to reflect the current information provided by our milk product supplier.
We pride ourselves on being as open with all of our customers as we can and always welcome your feedback.
Thank you for your ongoing support."
Now the first few lines are just padding to try and make excuses as to why it took your incompetent staff atleast 4 working days to deal with such a sensitive issue.
"Apologies for the delay in responding, it can be difficult at times to respond to detailed questions about our products and formulas, especially when confidential information is often involved. We do value the feedback and questions from all of our customers, but at times we also need to consider the commercial implications as well. With this in mind, we have tried to provide some information in answer to the questions posed in recent days regarding the formulation of our shakes, I hope the following will clear up any confusion."
You use big words like "confidential information" and "commercial implications" to try and disguise what you really mean. I read "confidential information is often involved" as meaning that you need to HIDE the REAL reasons why the shakes have changed from public knowledge and "we also need to consider the commercial implications" to mean that people could stop using your product if they found out the only reason the shakes were changed was to increase profits (by decreasing expensive protein and decreasing vitamin/mineral content) or that TF could be sued if people were to find out that your previous product was Vitamin D deficient and did not meet the Australian Food Standards!
Moving on... The main paragraph is your terrible attempt to justify why the shakes have been changed but you want us to keep in mind that you "need to consider the commercial implications" so you are keeping "confidential information" to yourselves so we dont find out the truth. First of all, you dont even admit that the protein content has been decreased, you just say "the amount of protein has been varied slightly in each shake as a result of advice we have received from our nutritional advisory team based on new research into the use of protein in weight loss." What a load of BS. Less protein + more carbs = better weightloss. LMAO. Who are your nutritionists? Do they even have a qualification? Or has TF just given them a 2 day TF training and called them "Tony Ferguson Nutritonists" despite them actually not knowing what the difference is between carbs and protein? Hell, your "nutritionists" can come up with any research they want - its all how you interpret results and conduct your study. I could do a study with one person eating 1000 calories of ONLY Mars Bars each day while another person eats 5000 calories of ONLY TF shakes and justify that Mars Bars result in better weightloss than TF shakes. So are you really telling us that decreasing the protein content and increasing carb content will assist our weightloss? Assist your profits yes, but i highly doubt it will assist our weightloss. Considering that your own TF staff have said that "Tony Ferguson weight loss program puts you into a very mild state of ketosis, so having even the smallest amounts of foods that are not allowed on the program (carbohydrates like bread, biscuits, sugar etc) could be enough to throw you out of ketosis", an extra few grams of carbs in the shakes could make all the difference (or could make the difference with combined with another source of extra carbs like larger servings of fruit). Oh, and PLEASE dont use the 'its the type of carbs that counts' excuse to justify that the extra carbs in the TF shakes wont affect ketosis, thats a load of BS. On the other hand, I could present research that supports having more protein and less carbs in the shakes (say 20g of protein and 25g of carbs) would result in better weightloss but i will leave that for later use if i need it. However, if you stand by your research then at least show it to us so i can tear it to shreds and make your "nutritionists and formulation team" look even more unqualified.
Next part of the paragraph: "The aim of this small change is to improve satiety, while minimizing energy input." To my understanding, this means the small change should keep us feeling fuller for longer, while adding no extra calorie consumption. Again, i could do a study and give somebody 5000cal of carbs each day to consume and another person only 100cal of protein and then report that the carb person experienced less hunger than the protein person but if you say more carbs and less protein will keep us feeling fuller then hopefully you are telling us the truth (rather than keeping the "confidential information" to yourselves and giving us a made up excuse). However, i notice that maltodextrin seems to be higher on the ingredients list and from a quick search on the web i found this about maltodextrin:
"What's great about Nutrim is that it is low glycemic (38, which is far lower than most carbohydrates you find in meal replacements, like maltodextrin, which is around 158. To put this into perspective, table sugar is 80!!)." From - http://www.isatoritech.com/product1.aspx?SID=8&Product_ID=57
"High fructose corn syrup is endemic in processed foods. Fructose is not high fructose corn syrup, which is a mix of 50% fructose & 50% glucose with a high GI=89. Maltodextrin, used in many prepared foods, has an even higher GI=137." From - http://optimalhealth.cia.com.au/gi17.html
"Maltodextrin is the absolute best carbohydrate to consume during exercise for rapidly delivering blood glucose and for muscle glycogen recovery. " From - http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi3.htm
"The danger is that maltodextrin has an extremely high glycemic index of 105." From - http://lowcarbohydrate.blogspot.com/2007/08/maltodextrin-splenda-and-glycemic-index.html
Yes, i have raised the maltodextrin issue before and i did only post the info i found that supported my understanding that maltodextrin was high GI and not a slow release of energy but that is my qualification-free research and understanding, so where is yours? Surely being the "nutritionists and formulation team" you should have something more professional and reputable than web-derived info - maybe some scientific studies or papers to support your response?
Finally and possibly my favourite part is "The changes noted in vitamin and sodium levels can occur from time to time because our shakes are based on naturally occurring milk product. As with any milk based product, exact ratios of nutrients can vary slightly over time. When we update labels with new information, we will at that time also update all ingredients to reflect the current information provided by our milk product supplier." Now i understand that seasonal ingredients can vary in nutritional information - in fact a packet of Red Rock Deli Potato Chips that i have in front of me (Sweet Chilli & Sour Cream if you wanted to know) has under the nutritional information "average values subject to seasonal variation". However, correct me if i am wrong, milk doesnt naturally contain vitamin E, or iron or any other vitamins/minerals apart from calcium (and maybe another 1 or two vitamins/minerals). So how is there all these vitamins and minerals in your shakes? BECAUSE YOU ADD THEM. You add certain amounts of vitamins and minerals just like you add certain amounts of flavouring etc. So saying that the change in vitamin B is because of the seasonal change in milk is a LIE. You added less vitamins and minerals chances are to increase profits - JUST ADMIT IT. Even if you save only 5cents per shake by skimping on protein/vitamins/minerals, after a million shakes are sold thats an extra $50 000 PROFIT! 'Who cares about the consumer, lets just keep this information confidential and blame seasonal changes and hope they are all to stupid to figure out the truth...'
Then the final two lines i love. The good old suck-up lines to make us feel good and hopefully make us over-look what a sh*t response we have just been given.
"We pride ourselves on being as open with all of our customers as we can and always welcome your feedback.
Thank you for your ongoing support."
"Being as open with all of our customers as we can" WTF? From what I have explained above, it sure seems you are not being open with us at all. As for the "ongoing support", that may slow a little if people find out "confidential information" you are keeping secret but given the fact you are probably currently making more profit per shake, i suppose you dont care if you lose a few of your clients who have been following this issue on the forum. Who cares about losing $1000 now if you make an extra $50 000 in the near future because of the increased profits as i explained before.
As i have said before, i have only explained my understandings and beliefs. If I am wrong, i welcome TF staff/people to correct me because i understand that i do not know everything and i may have some information wrong. Remember though, i have no qualifications where as you should be the ones who are nearly always correct and have all the understanding and knowledge to prove your points because you are the "nutritionists and formulation team" after all!
So where to from here? Well, to assist your staff who either have a very short poor memory or who have purposefully avoided answering certain issues, i have compiled a list of questions or issues that i WANT answered. Some may have been mentioned in my previous posts, some may have been mentioned above and some may be new but they all relate to this issue and if you want this issue cleared up i think it would be in your best interest to answer them all very thoroughly and truthfully. Giving us a load of BS like before will only result on this issue being given more attention and staying around for longer. After all, i was invited to meet with your team and get all the facts then post a summary for all to read so why not just cut out the middle man and post the information directly on the forum?
The questions/points i would like answered, please:
1) From what i have shown, it looks like Vitamin D has been increased from 1.28mcg to 2.5mcg per sachet. This means previously, there was not 25% of the RDI of Vitamin D that is required by the Australian Food Standards. As somebody wisely pointed out, we should be getting enough Vit D from our multi and veggies and the sun but thats not my point. I want to know was your previous product Vitamin D deficient and therefore, did not meet the Australian Food Standards?
2) What is the GI of maltodextrin? (Or your best guess if you dont know)
3) Assuming maltodextrin is high GI, how would increasing its content in the shakes assist with satiety considering how much you advertise that TF uses low GI sugars like fructose and lactose to keep us feeling full?
4) Have you decreased the amount of certain vitamins and minerals in the shakes YOURSELVES rather than seasonal changes in milk being the reason? If so, this means your seasonal changes in milk excuse is a blatant LIE!
5) I believe the decrease in protein and most vitamins/minerals is to decrease the cost per sachet and seeing the cost to us has not changed, it is to increase your profits. Is this correct? If not, then please justify why not?
6) Please explain why nobody seems to know about the shake changes. I contacted 3 stores around Brisbane and nobody could give me any information regarding the changes.
7) Please explain why no announcement was made on the forum regarding these changes.
8) Numerous people are suddenly feeling ill when consuming the shakes when they have previously used the shakes and have never experienced any problems. Some ingredients have been removed, others added, some have been increased, others decreased. ms4off100 for example says, "I thought restarting was the reason that the shakes weren't tasting as good and not going down as easy as they used to. Plus they seem to give me a flemmy feeling in the throat now. I'm left wondering whether it's because they have been changed." Could these cases of illness be to do with the change in shake ingredients?
9) "The amount of protein has been varied slightly in each shake as a result of advice we have received from our nutritional advisory team based on new research into the use of protein in weight loss." Please explain this point and provide all relevant research and justification because i believe the decrease in protein is to increase profits and that is all. Prove me wrong if you can.
Sorry about the list of questions. I just want everything cleared up and i tried to make it as simple as possible for your staff to see exactly what i want answered.
I also thought it would be fun for me to create an alternative version of the response that you provided - just for fun:
"Dear All,
Apologies for the delay in responding, it took our incompetent staff 4 working days to create 2 positive excuses in response to the detailed questions asked by that pain-in-the-@ss Deadly.Dav0. It has been extremely difficult to create positive excuses about our products and formulas because the real reason we changed our shakes was simply to increase our profit margins and eliminate the possibility of being sued because our previous product did not meet the Australian Food Standards for meal replacements. We value feedback and questions from all our customers (except when we get asked for the 511th time "Are there any new flavours coming soon") but we like to save time by providing copy-and-paste answers for most posts even if our response doesnt properly answer the question being asked. But at times, we need to avoid legal difficulties so we just spit a politically correct answer of "check with your doctor" or "check with a nutritionist" which keeps us out of legal trouble but doesnt help the person with the question!
With this in mind, we have provided the only 2 positive excuses our staff-simpletons could create in response to the questions posed in recent days (we could have told the truth but that would have made us look bad and resulted in less profits - cant have less profits!!!). We hope the following will be enough to fool you into thinking that what we are telling you is the entire truth and that we have made changes to the shakes entirely for your benefit rather than our profits! After all, our motto is: "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS" and we have never had any brilliance so hopefully our BS will clear up any confusion.
As posted, the amount of protein has been varied a very, very small amount in each shake as a result of a lengthy 1-hour-long "research" conducted by our TF nutritional advisory (by TF nutritional advisory we mean our 2 cleaners - Bob and Mike). Our fully qualified cleaners - i mean nutritionists - found that protein in fact is bad for weightloss because it makes you grow muscle like Arnie therefore gaining weight and what female wants to look like Arnie? Our nutritionists concluded that in fact carbs are better for our profits - we mean weightloss - because when people crave carbs, its better they get their carb fix from our carb-rich shakes rather than ditching our shakes for a carb fix like Subway or McDonalds! Meanwhile, the changes noted in vitamin and sodium levels are unfortunately due to global warming. The rise in the Earth's core temperature has electro-magnetically reduced the amount of vitamins and minerals in our shakes. Fortunately, the upside of this global warming is that we now recommend people take 2 Simply Multivitamin capsules each day! More Simply Multivitamin sales means more profit! Yay! However, we wont tell our consumers that the strength of our Simply Multivitamin has also been electro-magnetically reduced so in fact the new formula is only one-third of the strength of the old formula because who would take $1.50 worth of Simply Multivitamin each day [approx price of 3 tabs a day] when there are a lot better and cheaper multivitamins on the market! - And no, Centrum is not one of them. Cheaper yes, but not better.
We pride ourselves on being as creative with our answers as we can be because at the end of the day, who cares about the truth when there are more profits to be made! As always, we welcome your feedback but its unlikely you will be satisfied with the reply you receive (if any)!
Thank you for your ongoing support and keep an eye out for our new product soon to be released... TF Shakes now with M-P (Maxi-Profit). These new shakes and soups have the exact same ingredients but a shiny new packet which makes people think they are buying a product worth the $9.95 we will be charging for each sachet!
Finally, I understand that this post will probably make a lot of people hate me/want to abduct me and/or want to kill me. I understand that there will be people out there that totally disagree with me and are happy with the information provided by the TF staff. Everybody is different. I wanted answers and they have not been given to me. I am offended by the information we have been provided because it makes me think that the TF staff think we must be complete idiots to believe such BS. I am sick of lame, half-@ssed responses being provided by the TF staff. It happened again and again with the Empower Wraps and although the wraps have not been officially "TF approved" they meet the offical TF treat guidelines so it looks like i was right and the TF staff were wrong from the start. I also feel that if we dont demand a proper response we will never be given a proper answer. It has happened time and time again. Somebody asks about a sensitive issue and the TF reply dances around the issue. For example, somebody might ask:
"If i drink 100L of water a day, will it be bad for me"
And the TF staff might reply:
"Dear So-and-So,
In regards to your question, water is good for you. Drinking water can help to relieve fluid retention, keep you regular and assist with making you feel full.
Please feel free to contact us if you have any further enquiries.
Kind Regards,
TF person"
(That was a poor example but i hope people understand my point.)
I mean what kind of response is that! I often think - did the staff even read the question or did they just see a few key works (such as water) so they copied-and-pasted their answer from their TF answer book. So my point is, i want answers and i want the TF staff to understand that their previous response was not satisfactory (in my books) and i expect them to thoroughly answer all of my questions.
To those people who wish to comment about this post, please feel free to comment in our General thread (http://forum.tonyferguson.com/Topic367480-2-1.aspx) or if you dont have the guts to voice your opinion publicly, feel free to send me a PM and be as abusive or as supportive as you want. Just understand that i may post your abusive PMs for all to see if i feel like it. I can assure you i will not be offended by any PMs because i LOVE conflict (this post took me more than 4 hours create and proof-read - sad i know but i LOVE conflict and i HATE to lose!) and i feel that anybody who has something to say, should let the whole world know about it when it is a public issue.
I have also created backup copies of this entire post, any images i have provided as well as your original response should you edit or delete anything. I still remember the Red Clover + pregnancy issue and i am not going to let you get away with burying another major issue like you did before...
Considering it took your TF nutritionists 28 days to reply to my 10 relatively simple questions i emailed back in Jan, hopefully you can be a bit quicker this time because I am not the only one waiting for a response. As a few people have said, the longer you take to reply, the worse it makes you look!
Until then, good luck making excuses this time!
I have just read the new announcement (http://forum.tonyferguson.com/Topic371646-15-1.aspx) regarding the shake change and will update this post soon...
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Forum Newbie
Group: Forum Members
Last Login: Tuesday, 20 May 2008 1:30 PM
Posts: 3,
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| Hmmmm, Well I for one can say that I am happy with the response. As per usual Dave you have nothing better to do with your time but badger the TF staff which in my books just proves that you are a sad little man!!! I'm not sure of your current circumstances but a little advice from me........ GET A LIFE. You really are pathetic & it only proves how little you know which for you I guess is excusable considering that you are only "21" with so call clients Lol. To all the TF Staff congrats & keep up the brilliant work & support because I for one have only just joined & have total faith in the program & the support in which it provides.
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Supreme Being
Group: Forum Members
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"but i LOVE conflict and i HATE to lose"
I think this one line gives the big picture
John______________________________ A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.  
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Supreme Being
Group: Banned Members
Last Login: Wednesday, 17 December 2008 8:44 AM
Posts: 662,
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Thanks for the new info regarding the shake changes that you have just posted (from here: http://forum.tonyferguson.com/Topic371646-15-1.aspx). Rather than change my previous post, i will look at your new explanation piece by piece then update any of my points/questions/arguements that need updating...
"Dear All,
As a follow up to the post on Friday regarding changes to the formula of Tony Ferguson sachets, we have tried to again answer the questions raised throughout a number of posts over the past week. Again it needs to be pointed out that detailed information about our products and formulas is often sensitive commercial information. If at times we are unable to answer questions in as much detail as some forum users wish, it is not to deliberately keep information hidden, only to protect our business." I am not sure what questions you are referring to here because most people were just angry that the changes had been made and that they had not been informed. Twism i think was about the only person who had questions and i still think they have been left unanswered. I am concerned that you AGAIN refer to "sensitive commercial information" and that you need to "protect our business". I believe this points to a more sinister reason why the shakes have been changed. It really sounds that you are keeping infomation ("sensitive commercial information") to yourselves so that you dont lose profits ("protect our business"). Lets pretend the reason the shakes have been changed is to make more money... What damage would that do to your business? People could get angry and stop using your products but thats about it. And what if the reason the shakes changed was because they were vitamin D deficent? Again, the only possible damage that could arise would be from TF clients. I cant think of any reason why you would keep information private apart from to keep the truth from your TF clients which would to protect your profts.
"Protein; as previously posted, the change to the quantity of protein in the shakes has been made based on recommendations by our nutritional team. This change results from research into the roles of various proteins in weight loss."
Again, im calling BS here. As Twism said, show us the research that your qualified "nutritionist and formulation team" are going by. Again and again you stress how important protein is (keeps us full, maintains muscle) and how important it is to restrict carbs yet you have gone against your principles and added more carbs and less protein to your shakes. It doesnt make sense to me unless you are making more profit per shake.
"Carbohydrate; as a result of the change in protein, the amount of carbohydrate in the formula needed to be increased to maintain the sachets energy content (which is required to be at least 850 kj). Importantly the change in protein and carbohydrate has resulted in no change to the energy content of the sachet and will not affect your ability to lose weight using the product. Our nutritional team has pointed out that natural variation in your diet through your daily choices of fruit, vegetable and protein containing foods while on the Tony Ferguson Program will result in larger changes in protein and carbohydrate levels."
Yes, the Australian Food Standards requires atleast 850kj per meal replacement. And if you are going to use less protein, why not add more cheap maltodextrin. After all, 2g of something with a high GI probably wont alter the GI of the shakes by much but it will make you more money! Woo-hoo! Yes, if you remove 2g of protein and add 2g of carbs the overall energy wont change but saying that it "will not affect your ability to lose weight" - thats a big call! I have clients that follow the EXACT SAME TF program but use a high protein, low carb shake instead of your TF shakes. They consume approx 200 cal, 30g of protein and 15g of carbs in their shakes and guess what... on average they lose more weight than a person doing exactley the same but using a TF shake. Why? The calories are still the same but they are consuming more protein and less carbs and this results in more weightloss! Remember, what does TF say to do to try and break a plateau? "Substitute your fruit serves between meals with a protein rich snack like a boiled egg or lean meat. Do this for at least four or five days"(http://www.tonyferguson.com/Stalled-weight-loss.aspx). So are you sure more carbs and less protein will not affect weightloss? For a 150kg man 2g less protein and 2g extra carbs will probably not make a difference but for a 55kg female, then my guess is that extra carbs and less protein WOULD make a difference. Maybe not by a large amount but even if it was 50g less per week, would you feel ripped off? I know i would! Yes, daily choices of fruit etc will probably result in larger differences of daily protein/carb intake but WHY CHANGE THE SHAKES??? There are heaps of people already who struggle to lose weight because they get plenty of carbs so why add some extra carbs to the shakes? Another point worth considering, why didnt you add more fructose if you were going to increase the carbs? Maybe because fructose is more expensive than maltodextrin and you hoped people wouldnt notice the increase in maltodextrin?
"Maltodextrin; there has been a very small change in the amount of Maltodextrin as a result of the small increase in carbohydrate in the sachet. Again the impact of this change is far smaller then potential variation in your diet while on the program."
How small a change are we talking about? Approx 2g to make up for the 2g drop in protein? As i said before, why not add more fructose if you are going to add more carbs? The only reason i can think of is to make more profit. Yes, the change in maltodextrin is a small change compared to the change in daily food intake but the change is not helping anybody apart from who gets the profits from the shakes!
"Sodium and Vitamins; as previously posted, these nutrients can vary based on the original milk product supplied. This information is updated each time a new label is prepared to reflect the latest information provided by our milk product supplier."
Again, i am no nutritional expert but most of the vitamins and minerals in the shakes are ADDED. So saying that the reason vitamin D has increased from 1.28mcg to 2.5mcg because of a change in milk is BS in my opinion - particularily when the milk content in the shakes has most likely been decreased to decrease the protein content. And isnt it strange how most of the vitamins/minerals have gone from 25.5 or 26% RDI to EXACTLY 25% RDI which is the MINIMUM REQUIRED AMOUNT. Suss in my books. Again, who benefits from these changes? Nobody apart from the people who gets the TF shake profits!
"Flavour/Texture; when making a product such as this, there will always be very minor variations in flavour and texture from one batch to another. The changes made to the formula will not cause any greater change than would normally be expected."
I did not compare the before and after of every shake's ingredients (i can if i have to though) but as i have previously said in the chocolate shake, the cocoa powder has gone from 4% in the old type to 5% in the new type. OMG!!! That means the new chocolate is even more chocolate-ier!!! For most people, more chocolate flavouring is a good thing so i have no problems with adding more cocoa powder but the flavour of some shakes HAS been altered, even ifs its only by a little bit it has been purposefully altered and the flavour difference is not due to differences between batches. Sure, there will be always be minor differences in flavour between different batches but if somebody wonders why their chocolate shakes has a stronger chocolate flavour, then they may not be imagining things!
"Allergies; because there has been no new ingredients added to the formula, only small variations in ratios of current ingredients, there is no reason for customers to now suffer allergic reactions who were previously allergy free."
I have to call BS here. USing my chocolate shake example that i have previously posted....
OLD Ingredients - Milk solids, fructose, cocoa powder (4%), vegetable fat, glucose syrup solids, maltodextrin, thickeners (407, 1422), lecithin [soy derived], minerals (magnesium oxide, ferrous sulphate, zinc oxide, potassium iodide), flavour [wheat derived], emulsifiers (339, 471, 472c, 450), vitamins (A, B1, B2, B6, B12, C, D, E, folate, niacin), free flow agent (551), antioxidant (306) [soy derived].
NEW Ingredients - Milk solids, fructose, cocoa powder (5%), maltodextrin, vegetable fat, thickeners (407, 1422), minerals (magnesium oxide, sodium phosphate, ferrous sulphate, zinc oxide, potassium iodide), flavour, vitamins (C, E, B3, B2, B6, B1, A, folate, D, B12), emulsifiers (471, 472c, 450, 322), free flow agent (551), antioxidant (306).
Whats the difference? From what i can see (in terms of allergies etc) the emulsifiers have changed from (339, 471, 472c, 450) to (471, 472c, 450, 322). Now i dont have much of an idea what emulsifiers are but a NEW ONE HAS BEEN ADDED. So, a new ingredient HAS BEEN ADDED yet you clearly said "there has been no new ingredients added to the formula". Heck, if i get time, i will look at all the shakes to see what new ingredients have been added and post them for everybody to see!
"Communication; due to the minor nature of these changes, as a company we decided that it was unnecessary to make widespread announcements about the change. Clearly for a small number of customers this has caused some confusion and concern. This was certainly not our intention."
Did you really think that not one person in Australia would notice that there had been changes? Im sorry but again im calling BS. You hoped nobody would notice that the shakes now have less protein and more carbs as well as numerous other changes. As you said before, you need to keep in mind the "sensitive commercial information" so you can "protect our business". What better way to protect your business than pretend nothing has changed - if nobody notices then you get away with it!
"Finally a suggestion was made by one post that these changes were designed to lengthen the amount of time customers took to achieve their goal weight. This is categorically not the case. The success of our company is completely based on the success of our customers. To deliberately delay or risk the weight loss of our customers completely undermines the principles of Tony Ferguson and the ultimate success of Tony Ferguson Weightloss.
We hope that this will allow each of you using Tony Ferguson to continue your weight loss journey with confidence."
I am pretty impressed with the person that raised the 'longer time to lose weight' issue. I also think it is a valid point. Yes, the daily changes we make in our diet are probably greater than the changes in the TF shakes but if a person uses 2 shakes a day over a period of lets say 20 weeks thats a total of 560g EXTRA CARBS! (Assuming the shakes had an additional 2g of carbs each and that 2 shakes were used every single day for that 20 week period). Why wouldnt you want us to consume 560g of protein instead? Even if its only 50g less weightloss per week, that means after 20 weeks that person would have lost 1kg less. Thats another week or two on the TF program and another week or two of profits! And who is going to blame 2g of extra carbs in each shake for taking 21 or 22 weeks to reach goal instead of 20 weeks?? We will never know exactly how much the extra carbs and less protein affects weightloss unless there is a big study but i believe that it would make a difference over a period of time. Yes, our daily diet would most likely make more of a difference but why disadvantage us by putting extra carbs in the shakes?
So, that is my reply to your response. Remember, i am only going by my limited understandings so please prove me wrong if you can. However, i really think you are providing a cover story as to why the shakes have been changed. Using an excuse that more carbs and less protein is the way to go goes against the weightloss principles that the TF program is based upon. And saying things like "there has been no new ingredients added to the formula" is WRONG and blaming vitamin and minerals changes on changes in milk is WRONG to the best of my knowledge. I know there may be some blind people on this forum that believe everything you say but i hope I am not one of them.
I still think all my previous questions are valid (apart from #7) and here they are again...
1) From what i have shown, it looks like Vitamin D has been increased from 1.28mcg to 2.5mcg per sachet. This means previously, there was not 25% of the RDI of Vitamin D that is required by the Australian Food Standards. As somebody wisely pointed out, we should be getting enough Vit D from our multi and veggies and the sun but thats not my point. I want to know was your previous product Vitamin D deficient and therefore, did not meet the Australian Food Standards?
2) What is the GI of maltodextrin? (Or your best guess if you dont know)
3) Assuming maltodextrin is high GI, how would increasing its content in the shakes assist with satiety considering how much you advertise that TF uses low GI sugars like fructose and lactose to keep us feeling full?
4) Have you decreased the amount of certain vitamins and minerals in the shakes YOURSELVES rather than seasonal changes in milk being the reason? If so, this means your seasonal changes in milk excuse is a blatant LIE!
5) I believe the decrease in protein and most vitamins/minerals is to decrease the cost per sachet and seeing the cost to us has not changed, it is to increase your profits. Is this correct? If not, then please justify why not?
6) Please explain why nobody seems to know about the shake changes. I contacted 3 stores around Brisbane and nobody could give me any information regarding the changes.
7) -----------------------
8) Numerous people are suddenly feeling ill when consuming the shakes when they have previously used the shakes and have never experienced any problems. Some ingredients have been removed, others added, some have been increased, others decreased. ms4off100 for example says, "I thought restarting was the reason that the shakes weren't tasting as good and not going down as easy as they used to. Plus they seem to give me a flemmy feeling in the throat now. I'm left wondering whether it's because they have been changed." Could these cases of illness be to do with the change in shake ingredients?
9) "The amount of protein has been varied slightly in each shake as a result of advice we have received from our nutritional advisory team based on new research into the use of protein in weight loss." Please explain this point and provide all relevant research and justification because i believe the decrease in protein is to increase profits and that is all. Prove me wrong if you can.
I have one more to add though:
10) I believe there have been some new ingredients added to the TF shakes so do you still stand by your statement that "there has been no new ingredients added to the formula"?
I hope you can answer my questions and give us the whole truth because the longer this issue drags out, the worse it makes you look! In all honesty, if you just said that you changed the shakes to make more money then i would shut up because i would have gotten to the truth. As i have said, i help people on the TF program and other diets and this isnt going to change my beliefs about your product much. Sure, it has changed the way i look at your management and people who provide your "responses" but it the end of the day, the TF program works for most people. I just wont let this issue die until i get a the truth because what you have been giving us is total BS.
Oh, I have also created a backup version of this post in case something "happens" to it.
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Supreme Being
Group: Forum Members
Last Login: Sunday, 24 August 2008 10:21 PM
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Ok I am officially convinced that some people have way too much time on their hands - sorry Dave, but this is just becoming more ridiculous as each day goes by. Give the staff a break for heaven's sake - why don't you write a letter of complaint directly to Mr Ferguson himself if this is concerning you so much? I'm sure the staff are exhausted by your long-winded posts by now. Sorry if I have offended you, but your posts on this issue are getting nowhere so try to be a bit more constructive.
Eza xxx
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Forum Guru
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Deadly.Dav0
I for one am offended by your post.
I assume you have too much time on you hands?
Did you know that the TF staff are very busy at the moment expanding into other countries?
Perhaps the dietary requirements have changed to allow all of the TF sachets to be the same for all countries?
The 1800 'help desk' staff cannot possibly know everything - they are not gods. They do have a life.
You also mention that you contacted several stores around Brisbane, you didn't mention if they were TW Chemists or Stand Alone stores?
The training provided for all weight loss practitioners is the same, but not all staff are trained - some are only meet and greet staff. So not everyone will have access to the correct information.
Also at TW Chemists the staff are rostered over a rotating basis and may only work one day a month in the TF section.
If you used a much friendlier approach you may have better luck with getting a response, instead of acting like a wounded bull in a china shop.
If I saw you coming I would roll my eyes and say 'not him again'.
Attitude is everything.
JohnP - Here I am being sucked into another forum to write a comment instead of lurking. Have a good one ;_)
Start Date: 20/03/07 Waist: 104cm Weight: 99.2kg
Week One: 27/03/07 Waist: 92cm Weight: 95.1kg Loss: 4.1kg
Week 22: 21/08/07 Waist: 80cm Weight: 80.7 Loss: 0.7
Total loss: 18.5 kg in 23 weeks
 
Start weight 99.2 kg / Goal weight 76 kg
  
"Many of life's failures are experienced by people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."
Thomas Edison
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: Wednesday, 17 December 2008 8:44 AM
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eza98 -
Yeah, its kinds sad how much time i put into my posts but if i didnt put any effort into them, i would never get any answers. What would a letter achieve? TF could just throw it out and not care, after all who cares if he loses 1 customer. But raising the issue online lets other people know and gets more of a push behind the post for answers. I didnt take offence, i have had my say, you have had yours. Its all good! I am sick on the staff's BS reponses, if they just told us plain and straight the reasons, none of this would have happened!
michellei-
I for one am offended by your post. - I understand, i dont expect everybody to like my post.
I assume you have too much time on you hands? - Depends on the way you look at things. You might watch 2 hours of TV while i would prefer to write a big post to get answers. Each to their own.
Did you know that the TF staff are very busy at the moment expanding into other countries? - Yes i did know that. But dont you think that TF should have enough staff for both AUS and US? Therefore, staff numbers shouldnt be an issue and anyway, how hard is it to provide a truthful response to this issue?
Perhaps the dietary requirements have changed to allow all of the TF sachets to be the same for all countries? - Did you not read what has changed? Less of most of the vitamins/minerals and more of vitamin D which is an AUSTRALIAN requirement. Its got nothing to do with international markets.
The 1800 'help desk' staff cannot possibly know everything - they are not gods. They do have a life. - Did you not read my original post. My posts are directed to the people that are providing the online TF staff with such BS responses. The "nutritionists and formulation team". I dont expect the online staff to know everything.
You also mention that you contacted several stores around Brisbane, you didn't mention if they were TW Chemists or Stand Alone stores? - Terry Whites. I didnt think of contacting a TF store because there are none in Bris that i know of. I asked for the TF person in charge of each store and in each case, the person was working that day but knew nothing. I dont know about the "Also at TW Chemists the staff are rostered over a rotating basis and may only work one day a month in the TF section." My main contact store has a naturopath, nutritionist and a full time TF person. They have a person who's main job is TF - nothing else. If that person doesnt know, then nobody in that store does!
If you used a much friendlier approach you may have better luck with getting a response, instead of acting like a wounded bull in a china shop. - I have tried that and most of the time you dont get a 100% answer. You get an answer like the one we have been given so far - just not good enough!
If I saw you coming I would roll my eyes and say 'not him again'. Attitude is everything. - I dont understand what you are going on about.
Thanks for the feedback though. So far the people who appreciate my posts regarding this issue far outweigh the people who dont appreciate my posts!
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: Wednesday, 17 December 2008 8:44 AM
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Its good to hear from somebody who works in a store. I have no issues with in-store staff knowing nothing about the shake changes because it is up to their management to inform them! I am 110% behind the store that i deal with. I have never had any problems with them and if they dont know something, they always take a contact number and find out the answers.
Good to hear that you have asked for answers and i would love to know if your management gives you the same BS that we have been given. Thanks to for supporting my posts - i am surprised that you like my posting style seeing that you actually work for TF!
Please keep us posted with what you are told by your head office!
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Forum Member
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I am personally extremely impressed with not only Dave's incredible persistence, but the time and effort he has put into both researching each and every detail of his posts before adding them and in attempting to show people that they can question aspects of this diet (like the empower wraps).
Whether you agree with him or not, I believe that people should appreciate that at least someone appears to care enough about unannounced changes to question them and make TF users aware. I for one am grateful knowing there is someone out there who is so observant and who will keep us all informed.
I sincerely hope that none of the nastier comments aimed at Dave deter him from his goals and I am 100% behind him on this. Well done Dave!
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